All you say is true except when you go to the Latin Mass. There, the queues for Confession are long and unbearable, unless you get there very early. At the Latin Mass, you see women wearing modest clothes and veils. Men are dressed modestly too, in long trousers and shoes, not beach shorts and flip flops. I have never been to a Novus Ordo parish that had regular confessions. I've been to many Novus Ordo masses around the world and it's always the same: hardly any confessions, people receiving communion in the hand.
The only time I have ever seen the confessional used is around Holy Week when the locals, who have been saving up their sins all year, go to Confession. This really drives me crazy. Saving up sins for the annual Confession "event" is not like saving money earning interest in your bank account. I don't know who put this notion into their heads. The local priests? The bishop? And once I went to Confession and the bishop forgot the words of absolution! I was tempted to ask him if I should use my iPhone to check online and provide him with the words of absolution but it might have been too humiliating for him. So he made up something and I just went away telling Jesus to please stop all this.
As long as Vatican II has not been condemned, this will continue.
Not in our Novus Ordo church. They have confession for two hours on Saturdays and from 7-7:45am Mon, Wed, Fri… and it’s STILL almost impossible to get in.
Same. Confession is alive and well where we are. Even people interested in OCIA but aren’t in full communion with the Church go to confession! We volunteer at OCIA and I was just talking to a young man last night who is not Catholic but went to confession! I live in one of the most secular states (Oregon) and our Archdiocese has some of the most reverent N.O masses. Even N.O in Latin. My priest is a traditional priest and is also the priest at a Latin Mass near us. But he would never claim that the N.O is invalid or that people who attend Latin Mass are more holy or devout. This either/or divisiveness is what is killing the Church (and I was in the Protestant world for 23 years and came into full communion with the Catholic Church 4 years ago), and a the general malaise of the West. Sadly, the infighting in the Catholic Church is beyond anything I ever experienced in the Protestant world. My husband and I are Benedictine oblates at an amazing monastery (Mount Angel Abbey) that has one of the best Catholic seminaries in the world, beautifully reverent, holy men, priests and monks. The mass is ALWAYS N.O. Never in Latin (though at vespers there is some Latin chant). Again, this is in Oregon in the Archdiocese of Portland. Completely liberal, secular city, but the Catholic Church is thriving (mostly N.O masses with Maronite, Byzantine, and a few Latin masses). The mass you worship at has nothing to do with your holiness and closeness to our Lord and Savior, and confession happens often at many, many parishes.
“The mass you worship at has nothing to do with your holiness and closeness to our Lord and Savior, and confession happens often at many, many parishes.” I agree, though I draw the line at “Masses” where people wear clown costumes and do the chicken dance while receiving the Eucharist. (I did not make this up; this happened in Germany.) An atmosphere of reverence and sacredness is very important IMO.
Yes I have heard of these masses (as a Protestant coming into the Church you have to wade through all this drama online as you are seeking the fullness of faith). These two particular examples of chicken dancing and clown masses are THE examples that get talked about the most when people slam the N.O…almost to the point that it has become an urban legend 😂 of course those are craaaazy extreme examples and are not the norm. Some of the holiest and devout Catholics I have met are faithful, Novus Order-going elderly men and women who have been through SO much in the Church over the years and are faithful to God and the Sacraments. One man named Bob comes to mind…89 years old, comes to mass an hour early just to pray and see his community. He literally glows with a joy that is childlike and full of peace. He’s a widow, can barely walk anymore, he loves to chat with everyone around him, passes the peace with handshakes, and breaks some of those “reverent” rules that “pure” TLM people judge like crazy. Seeing all this division since becoming Catholic has been really disappointing. I’d take Bob’s joy-filled, time-tested faith that is only at the N.O mass, over a rigid “hardcore” TLM-goer any day.
You would do wrong. I have some Friends at my TLM that also go to reverent modernists masses. They are not able to make out errors, deviations and plain herecies hidden in the NO at every Mass. They are risking their soul by being lazy and not learning about their True Faith (that's a duty of every Catholic). They believe that just by complying faithfully with external devotions they are all right. But that's not It, look at the Pharisees. At least Trads, though sinners, seek for the Truth and wish to comply fully with God, and have fear of God.
And your Old friend IS going astray, too. He is allowing the First Commandment to be run down by the Second, but the 1st commandment IS the Most important. Being a nice person to others or being a good person as world calls them IS also done by many Pagans. That is not what the narrow path of salvation IS about. It's growing to love God and always follow His Will, deny yourself, and telling the Truth to the world, even if It means being hated by others.
Main difference is not about the reverence, it's about the narrow path to salvation. TLM transmits the right instructions, the ones that followed the great Saints, Novus Ordo does not. You may not notice, because you need to read and learn in depth authentic Catholic Faith of 20 centuries, but poison to souls IS there, it's intrinsic to the Novus Ordo.
Ahh ok let me see if I’m understanding you correctly (since you are inferring that you have read and learned 20 centuries of deep authentic Catholic faith and apparently not even the various Popes, not to mention the entire clergy, have not understood what you understand since the N.O. is the standard mass for the Latin Church)…The TLM “transmits the right instructions” that are the narrow path to salvation. So I’ll have to tell my Eastern Rite friends that the mass of St. John Chrysostom isn’t really leading them to salvation? Not to mention my Maronite Catholic friend whose liturgy is in Aramaic and dates back to the very earliest days of the Church. Even my extremely traditional priest (God bless) who celebrates the N.O in our parish and the TLM for our vicariate would never promote such borderline heresy like you are stating here. But I guess (since neither of us truly knows the hearts of men and only God knows) will all experience who attains salvation in the end. Hopefully us N.O’ers will attain theosis😂🙏
How very nice for you that you have Confession and no need to make appointments like the rest of us on this great planet. The Archbishop of Portland also loves the Latin Mass so no surprise that his diocese has no infighting. Sadly there are many, many bishops on earth who hate the Latin Mass and hate Latin Mass attendees. The hatred isn’t coming from the NO laity or the TLM laity but from the silly bishop. Most NO attendees couldn’t care less about TradLand and vice versa but the bishop is the one who often instigates conflict. Now it appears that the previous Pope lied about the results of the survey he sent around to bishops re: the Latin Mass and just went ahead and tried to cancel it. Well, well… looks bad.
Well, I actually live in a very rural area, still in the Archdiocese, and there is only one parish 45 minutes from me that has the Latin mass once a week, we have one confession time per week, and we usually make an appointment with the priest anyway 🙂 it’s not that big of a deal. I never said there wasn’t infighting…wherever there are humans there is infighting. But the infighting absolutely distracts us from the mission Christ gave us: to make disciples of all nations. I stopped going to the TLM when I experienced the majority of people I interacted with in a great adventure of missing the point.
People are different everywhere and it’s not about the TLM or the NO. I liked the people at one particular Latin mass I used to attend. They were warm and devout, really serious Catholics who spent a lot of time in Eucharistic adoration and were keen on developing an interior meditative life. Ultimately the Mass is not about the socializing afterwards; that’s why parishes have activities.
I’m glad you feel good about it. I’ve been to NO Masses in Italy, France, Thailand, Japan, Greece, the UK, Spain, the US, Switzerland, the Philippines, Austria, and it’s always the case that the Confessional is a lovely restored wooden box or a wreck, either way, no one know what that artifact is in the first place. I’ve always had to make an appointment with the priest to confess unless it’s in one of those big basilicas like the Milan Duomo, the Lateran in Rome or a pilgrimage site like Santiago de Compostela, where there’s a lot of priests stationed in various confessionals hearing confessions in 10 languages.
I was contracting in Oklahoma last year. (I am originally from Missouri) The Novus Ordo Masses were so much more reverant in Oklahoma than I attend here in Northeast Florida. Gregorian Chant, one parish in Oklahoma the Priest faced the same direction as the congregation for the Eucharistic Prayer, another parish the Communicants all filed into the first row of pews and knelt to receive on the tongue. I miss it but I was laid off when the program was cancelled. There was an FSSP parish, but it was a further drive. Weekly Confession lines were long as well. Many young families... I could go on....
I’m sure you have a good intention but this is the problem I find with people who accept Vatican II. You complain constantly of its disciplines but accept it anyway. Most of the quotes you made, padre pio, Pius XIII etc, are before Vatican II. Vatican II doesn’t teach sin. It used to be a sin to pray with a heretic, or even read a book written by a heretic without dispensation, but Vatican II says heretics now have the Holy Ghost.
You either reject this doctrines and become a sedevacantist (holding that the modern antipopes are heretics therefore they can’t be followed) or accept the Church Vatican II has given you and stop complaining of every little thing. How long would you keep complaining?
You are blessed because God has allowed you to know some aspect of the pre-Vatican II faith, that’s why you can even write like this. But most “Catholics” only know Vatican II doctrines. Why should they go to confession when sin is a vague concept to them?
God is talking to you but you think it’s an avenue to complain. He’s telling you that is not His Church.
I used to be a Novus Ordite and confession was good at times but their concept of sin was flawed. Stop trying to fit a square into a circle. It won’t fit. You are reading from another rule book than they are, but you keep trying to fit in.
It helps if you think of the Anglican Church of England and the Elizabethan Settlement as a test run of the Novus Ordo and Vatican II done 400 years early.
I agree that regular confession is beneficial, but the Church’s rule is that we must attend yearly, the same as receiving communion at least yearly. In the past many Catholics rarely received communion, in defiance of the clear message of scripture and the teaching of the Council of Trent, and the restrictive rules probably played a part in the perpetuation of that sad state of affairs.
A practicing Catholic is one who frequents the sacraments, and it would be better if both confession and communion were frequented, rather than one or the other.
Not sure that this has any connection with being a Protestant. Someone who rarely confesses or receives communion may be a poor Catholic, but the point of Protestantism is rejection of the authority of the Church and its replacement by personal interpretation of scripture. Many of the comments being made here are closer to that spirit of rebellion against legitimate authority than the failings of lukewarm Catholics.
That’s not the Church’s rule, it’s the bare minimum the Church has established for someone to be able to be considered a Catholic. Saying that the minimum is the rule is somewhat disingenuous. The rule is to try and access the sacraments as frequently as possible, and that means either Communion every week at Mass, or Confession if for some reason you could not access the Eucharist, ideally both since we’re all sinners.
When I was a boy I was taught about the “6 chief commandments of the Church”, which included receiving confession and communion at least yearly. I don’t accept that abbreviating “a chief commandment” to “a rule” is disingenuous. Of course this is the bare minimum, and we should be confessing and receiving communion regularly; that is what I wrote.
You are longing for the Orthodox Church. That’s what you describe. We still worship the way the ancients did. Reverence, confession and repentance. ☦️ May the Lord Jesus Christ have mercy on us all
We were not in a church before this one, though I have attended services in a number of churches throughout my life. Roman Catholic mass was the most moving, the churches the most resplendent, but I never felt the overwhelming certainty I had when I first went to a Divine Liturgy. It is at once ancient (the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom is more than 1500 years old), and completely alive. I don’t know how else to say it, but all of the stuff you’re talking about here is just…not present in ROCOR or even OCA. The churches are full of a multi-generational set of people who are deeply dedicated to the faith. There might be some ethnic churches where people kind of phone it in, but I actually talked to a Russian the other day and she said, “Well, for Russians you’re either totally in the church or totally out,” which I think says something about the devotion of the people who are “totally in.”
Have you been to an Orthodox Church service before?
I’m starting to think converting to the ROC might be the only sane thing to do moving forward. The Catholic Church has strayed too far to self correct.
My husband, three children and I were baptized in the Russian Orthodox Church a year ago, after 9 months as catechumens. The depth of healing we have experienced, and the absolute refuge from the insanity of worldly culture cannot be overstated. I appreciated your comments about confession—it is a vital part of the faith. In the Russian Church, communion is not given to those who do not confess regularly. Please message me if you have specific questions; I love to speak about the Church (though I claim no special knowledge).
In central Mexico, no one has told Catholics how bad the NO is. Most Sundays, the majority of a congregation doesn’t take communion because they know they haven’t gone to confession and they aren’t going to fake it. At a nearby church, the priest hears confession near the front of the church before Mass with a simple kneeler, and folks line up—no time for the nitty-gritty, so summarize, please. One Sunday, there were so many in line that the Mass would have been delayed for who-know-how-long, so he gathered them into a group and blessed them all. Community Rosaries are common.
I agree with the thesis but believe the evidence is far, far too narrow.
America is fundamentally a Christian - Protestant - nation. In my experience, the Protestant influence on Catholic practice runs very, very deep.
From shades of emphasis in doctrine to the practical approach to Scripture, prayer, and the understanding of Faith, there is much more of a Protestant flavor than Catholic.
Now, don't get me wrong, not all of that is bad. But it's way more than outward behavior at Mass.
To take just one instance: how does a modern Catholic think through the paradox of predestination? More than just a catechetical formula that says Calvin is wrong. Why is Calvin wrong? What does the correct understanding look like? How does it inform our prayer life and approach to the sacraments?
We have such a fabulously rich heritage - take St. Augustine to Therese of Lisieux for example - but we don't have a culture that is informed by it. Therefore it takes work.
Everything you say is true and observable. The point I would make is that most catholics live in ignorance whether willfully so or not but pre Vat 2 most catholics weren't given the chance to be ignorant as religious norms were preached and taught at catholic schools and just as importantly through the liturgy. The Holy Mass itself was a major source of teaching but what can we expect and how can we complain that a protestant mindset has taken hold of the once religiously aware Catholic when they turned the Mass into a protestant appeasing service stripped of reverence and due respect for all things holy. And we should complain not of the abandoned Eucharistic fast that it instilled a certain laziness in the faithful as if such a problem could not have been foreseen; On the contrary, this was the actual intended result the innovators hoped far. The answer? Disassociate oneself from the new comcilliar, synodal church while you still have faith and stay away from a liturgy that is more an occasion of sin than of holiness. The new church has abandoned and ridiculed the first three of the commandments, the ones pertaining to and concerned with due reverence and fear of God. If they can't get those right then what chance is there for the other seven?
Love this. This was a blessing to read! I am a Protestant lol. I’m Lutheran. I was raised Pentecostal, ended up Presbyterian later on (I REALLY thought I had ALL the answers then lol). I like to tell Protestants that Lutherans are the Orthodox of the Evangelical world. I tell people genuinely seeking to visit devout faithful churches that are Lutheran, Catholic, and Orthodox because though we have stark disagreements we do stand out strongly in contrast to the average American Church today. Anyway…. I’ve never heard that Catholics did a midnight fast before the Mass. I love that. And of course Confession! It’s not thrust upon us like it should be, but even Lutherans do corporate and private confession and absolution. Yes. It’s still very different from Roman Catholic, but as someone who was raised evangelical most of his life I’m telling you that fact is CRAZY to the average Protestant today. I very much find myself feeling more understood and at home hanging out with a Catholic today than my old Non Denom homies.
Confession and Absolution when understood theologically (why we do it) is so deep and a rich a sacrament! It silences the devils and humbles us before our Creator while drawing us to Him! And then to go to the Eucharist having Confessed is to our forgiveness… you realize it with tangible elements.. the true body and blood! It’s so powerful and exciting! The sacraments are such a blessed gift our Lord knew we would need!
The central point of protestantism was to reject that the Mass is a sacrifice, that the sacraments impart actual grace rather than being mere symbols, that one does not need to go to a priest for confession after mortal sins, etc. The early protestants didn't believe in personal interpretation of scripture at all. You can read the Council of Trent and see that very few of the decrees have anything to do with church authority or sola Scriptura(which is different from personal interpretation) at all. The proper understanding of Church authority must be situated within St. Thomas Aquina's teaching on law, law is not the arbitrary command of those in power but a rational plan ordered to the good. Therefore, Catholics are required(not merely allowed) to resist leaders who do harm. The very Cardinal who wrote the decree of excommunication against Martin Luther wrote a whole book on resisting the Pope! (Not the Pope he worked for, but hypothetically)
All you say is true except when you go to the Latin Mass. There, the queues for Confession are long and unbearable, unless you get there very early. At the Latin Mass, you see women wearing modest clothes and veils. Men are dressed modestly too, in long trousers and shoes, not beach shorts and flip flops. I have never been to a Novus Ordo parish that had regular confessions. I've been to many Novus Ordo masses around the world and it's always the same: hardly any confessions, people receiving communion in the hand.
The only time I have ever seen the confessional used is around Holy Week when the locals, who have been saving up their sins all year, go to Confession. This really drives me crazy. Saving up sins for the annual Confession "event" is not like saving money earning interest in your bank account. I don't know who put this notion into their heads. The local priests? The bishop? And once I went to Confession and the bishop forgot the words of absolution! I was tempted to ask him if I should use my iPhone to check online and provide him with the words of absolution but it might have been too humiliating for him. So he made up something and I just went away telling Jesus to please stop all this.
As long as Vatican II has not been condemned, this will continue.
Not in our Novus Ordo church. They have confession for two hours on Saturdays and from 7-7:45am Mon, Wed, Fri… and it’s STILL almost impossible to get in.
Same. Confession is alive and well where we are. Even people interested in OCIA but aren’t in full communion with the Church go to confession! We volunteer at OCIA and I was just talking to a young man last night who is not Catholic but went to confession! I live in one of the most secular states (Oregon) and our Archdiocese has some of the most reverent N.O masses. Even N.O in Latin. My priest is a traditional priest and is also the priest at a Latin Mass near us. But he would never claim that the N.O is invalid or that people who attend Latin Mass are more holy or devout. This either/or divisiveness is what is killing the Church (and I was in the Protestant world for 23 years and came into full communion with the Catholic Church 4 years ago), and a the general malaise of the West. Sadly, the infighting in the Catholic Church is beyond anything I ever experienced in the Protestant world. My husband and I are Benedictine oblates at an amazing monastery (Mount Angel Abbey) that has one of the best Catholic seminaries in the world, beautifully reverent, holy men, priests and monks. The mass is ALWAYS N.O. Never in Latin (though at vespers there is some Latin chant). Again, this is in Oregon in the Archdiocese of Portland. Completely liberal, secular city, but the Catholic Church is thriving (mostly N.O masses with Maronite, Byzantine, and a few Latin masses). The mass you worship at has nothing to do with your holiness and closeness to our Lord and Savior, and confession happens often at many, many parishes.
“The mass you worship at has nothing to do with your holiness and closeness to our Lord and Savior, and confession happens often at many, many parishes.” I agree, though I draw the line at “Masses” where people wear clown costumes and do the chicken dance while receiving the Eucharist. (I did not make this up; this happened in Germany.) An atmosphere of reverence and sacredness is very important IMO.
Yes I have heard of these masses (as a Protestant coming into the Church you have to wade through all this drama online as you are seeking the fullness of faith). These two particular examples of chicken dancing and clown masses are THE examples that get talked about the most when people slam the N.O…almost to the point that it has become an urban legend 😂 of course those are craaaazy extreme examples and are not the norm. Some of the holiest and devout Catholics I have met are faithful, Novus Order-going elderly men and women who have been through SO much in the Church over the years and are faithful to God and the Sacraments. One man named Bob comes to mind…89 years old, comes to mass an hour early just to pray and see his community. He literally glows with a joy that is childlike and full of peace. He’s a widow, can barely walk anymore, he loves to chat with everyone around him, passes the peace with handshakes, and breaks some of those “reverent” rules that “pure” TLM people judge like crazy. Seeing all this division since becoming Catholic has been really disappointing. I’d take Bob’s joy-filled, time-tested faith that is only at the N.O mass, over a rigid “hardcore” TLM-goer any day.
You would do wrong. I have some Friends at my TLM that also go to reverent modernists masses. They are not able to make out errors, deviations and plain herecies hidden in the NO at every Mass. They are risking their soul by being lazy and not learning about their True Faith (that's a duty of every Catholic). They believe that just by complying faithfully with external devotions they are all right. But that's not It, look at the Pharisees. At least Trads, though sinners, seek for the Truth and wish to comply fully with God, and have fear of God.
And your Old friend IS going astray, too. He is allowing the First Commandment to be run down by the Second, but the 1st commandment IS the Most important. Being a nice person to others or being a good person as world calls them IS also done by many Pagans. That is not what the narrow path of salvation IS about. It's growing to love God and always follow His Will, deny yourself, and telling the Truth to the world, even if It means being hated by others.
Main difference is not about the reverence, it's about the narrow path to salvation. TLM transmits the right instructions, the ones that followed the great Saints, Novus Ordo does not. You may not notice, because you need to read and learn in depth authentic Catholic Faith of 20 centuries, but poison to souls IS there, it's intrinsic to the Novus Ordo.
Ahh ok let me see if I’m understanding you correctly (since you are inferring that you have read and learned 20 centuries of deep authentic Catholic faith and apparently not even the various Popes, not to mention the entire clergy, have not understood what you understand since the N.O. is the standard mass for the Latin Church)…The TLM “transmits the right instructions” that are the narrow path to salvation. So I’ll have to tell my Eastern Rite friends that the mass of St. John Chrysostom isn’t really leading them to salvation? Not to mention my Maronite Catholic friend whose liturgy is in Aramaic and dates back to the very earliest days of the Church. Even my extremely traditional priest (God bless) who celebrates the N.O in our parish and the TLM for our vicariate would never promote such borderline heresy like you are stating here. But I guess (since neither of us truly knows the hearts of men and only God knows) will all experience who attains salvation in the end. Hopefully us N.O’ers will attain theosis😂🙏
How very nice for you that you have Confession and no need to make appointments like the rest of us on this great planet. The Archbishop of Portland also loves the Latin Mass so no surprise that his diocese has no infighting. Sadly there are many, many bishops on earth who hate the Latin Mass and hate Latin Mass attendees. The hatred isn’t coming from the NO laity or the TLM laity but from the silly bishop. Most NO attendees couldn’t care less about TradLand and vice versa but the bishop is the one who often instigates conflict. Now it appears that the previous Pope lied about the results of the survey he sent around to bishops re: the Latin Mass and just went ahead and tried to cancel it. Well, well… looks bad.
Well, I actually live in a very rural area, still in the Archdiocese, and there is only one parish 45 minutes from me that has the Latin mass once a week, we have one confession time per week, and we usually make an appointment with the priest anyway 🙂 it’s not that big of a deal. I never said there wasn’t infighting…wherever there are humans there is infighting. But the infighting absolutely distracts us from the mission Christ gave us: to make disciples of all nations. I stopped going to the TLM when I experienced the majority of people I interacted with in a great adventure of missing the point.
People are different everywhere and it’s not about the TLM or the NO. I liked the people at one particular Latin mass I used to attend. They were warm and devout, really serious Catholics who spent a lot of time in Eucharistic adoration and were keen on developing an interior meditative life. Ultimately the Mass is not about the socializing afterwards; that’s why parishes have activities.
I’m glad you feel good about it. I’ve been to NO Masses in Italy, France, Thailand, Japan, Greece, the UK, Spain, the US, Switzerland, the Philippines, Austria, and it’s always the case that the Confessional is a lovely restored wooden box or a wreck, either way, no one know what that artifact is in the first place. I’ve always had to make an appointment with the priest to confess unless it’s in one of those big basilicas like the Milan Duomo, the Lateran in Rome or a pilgrimage site like Santiago de Compostela, where there’s a lot of priests stationed in various confessionals hearing confessions in 10 languages.
I was contracting in Oklahoma last year. (I am originally from Missouri) The Novus Ordo Masses were so much more reverant in Oklahoma than I attend here in Northeast Florida. Gregorian Chant, one parish in Oklahoma the Priest faced the same direction as the congregation for the Eucharistic Prayer, another parish the Communicants all filed into the first row of pews and knelt to receive on the tongue. I miss it but I was laid off when the program was cancelled. There was an FSSP parish, but it was a further drive. Weekly Confession lines were long as well. Many young families... I could go on....
The Protestant spirit was ushered in with Vatican 2 and all the boomer priests. It’s time to return to the Mass of the Ages.
I’m sure you have a good intention but this is the problem I find with people who accept Vatican II. You complain constantly of its disciplines but accept it anyway. Most of the quotes you made, padre pio, Pius XIII etc, are before Vatican II. Vatican II doesn’t teach sin. It used to be a sin to pray with a heretic, or even read a book written by a heretic without dispensation, but Vatican II says heretics now have the Holy Ghost.
You either reject this doctrines and become a sedevacantist (holding that the modern antipopes are heretics therefore they can’t be followed) or accept the Church Vatican II has given you and stop complaining of every little thing. How long would you keep complaining?
You are blessed because God has allowed you to know some aspect of the pre-Vatican II faith, that’s why you can even write like this. But most “Catholics” only know Vatican II doctrines. Why should they go to confession when sin is a vague concept to them?
God is talking to you but you think it’s an avenue to complain. He’s telling you that is not His Church.
I used to be a Novus Ordite and confession was good at times but their concept of sin was flawed. Stop trying to fit a square into a circle. It won’t fit. You are reading from another rule book than they are, but you keep trying to fit in.
I’m sorry for the dilemma you are in. God bless.
It helps if you think of the Anglican Church of England and the Elizabethan Settlement as a test run of the Novus Ordo and Vatican II done 400 years early.
You appear to be what is wrong with your church
And you are what is right with the church.
I have nothing to do with it , obviously. You seem a bit thick.
??
I agree that regular confession is beneficial, but the Church’s rule is that we must attend yearly, the same as receiving communion at least yearly. In the past many Catholics rarely received communion, in defiance of the clear message of scripture and the teaching of the Council of Trent, and the restrictive rules probably played a part in the perpetuation of that sad state of affairs.
A practicing Catholic is one who frequents the sacraments, and it would be better if both confession and communion were frequented, rather than one or the other.
Not sure that this has any connection with being a Protestant. Someone who rarely confesses or receives communion may be a poor Catholic, but the point of Protestantism is rejection of the authority of the Church and its replacement by personal interpretation of scripture. Many of the comments being made here are closer to that spirit of rebellion against legitimate authority than the failings of lukewarm Catholics.
That’s not the Church’s rule, it’s the bare minimum the Church has established for someone to be able to be considered a Catholic. Saying that the minimum is the rule is somewhat disingenuous. The rule is to try and access the sacraments as frequently as possible, and that means either Communion every week at Mass, or Confession if for some reason you could not access the Eucharist, ideally both since we’re all sinners.
When I was a boy I was taught about the “6 chief commandments of the Church”, which included receiving confession and communion at least yearly. I don’t accept that abbreviating “a chief commandment” to “a rule” is disingenuous. Of course this is the bare minimum, and we should be confessing and receiving communion regularly; that is what I wrote.
Everything I’ve read suggests that a typical medieval layperson confessed once a year, before Easter. At least before the 15th century.
I think this was actually the norm even into the 19th century…
You are longing for the Orthodox Church. That’s what you describe. We still worship the way the ancients did. Reverence, confession and repentance. ☦️ May the Lord Jesus Christ have mercy on us all
Have you ever visited an Eastern Orthodox Church? You may just find what you long for if you do…
We were not in a church before this one, though I have attended services in a number of churches throughout my life. Roman Catholic mass was the most moving, the churches the most resplendent, but I never felt the overwhelming certainty I had when I first went to a Divine Liturgy. It is at once ancient (the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom is more than 1500 years old), and completely alive. I don’t know how else to say it, but all of the stuff you’re talking about here is just…not present in ROCOR or even OCA. The churches are full of a multi-generational set of people who are deeply dedicated to the faith. There might be some ethnic churches where people kind of phone it in, but I actually talked to a Russian the other day and she said, “Well, for Russians you’re either totally in the church or totally out,” which I think says something about the devotion of the people who are “totally in.”
Have you been to an Orthodox Church service before?
I’m starting to think converting to the ROC might be the only sane thing to do moving forward. The Catholic Church has strayed too far to self correct.
My husband, three children and I were baptized in the Russian Orthodox Church a year ago, after 9 months as catechumens. The depth of healing we have experienced, and the absolute refuge from the insanity of worldly culture cannot be overstated. I appreciated your comments about confession—it is a vital part of the faith. In the Russian Church, communion is not given to those who do not confess regularly. Please message me if you have specific questions; I love to speak about the Church (though I claim no special knowledge).
What church did you belong to prior to joining the ROC.
I take it you go to a Novus ordo Mass.
In central Mexico, no one has told Catholics how bad the NO is. Most Sundays, the majority of a congregation doesn’t take communion because they know they haven’t gone to confession and they aren’t going to fake it. At a nearby church, the priest hears confession near the front of the church before Mass with a simple kneeler, and folks line up—no time for the nitty-gritty, so summarize, please. One Sunday, there were so many in line that the Mass would have been delayed for who-know-how-long, so he gathered them into a group and blessed them all. Community Rosaries are common.
America is not a normal place.
I agree with the thesis but believe the evidence is far, far too narrow.
America is fundamentally a Christian - Protestant - nation. In my experience, the Protestant influence on Catholic practice runs very, very deep.
From shades of emphasis in doctrine to the practical approach to Scripture, prayer, and the understanding of Faith, there is much more of a Protestant flavor than Catholic.
Now, don't get me wrong, not all of that is bad. But it's way more than outward behavior at Mass.
To take just one instance: how does a modern Catholic think through the paradox of predestination? More than just a catechetical formula that says Calvin is wrong. Why is Calvin wrong? What does the correct understanding look like? How does it inform our prayer life and approach to the sacraments?
We have such a fabulously rich heritage - take St. Augustine to Therese of Lisieux for example - but we don't have a culture that is informed by it. Therefore it takes work.
Everything you say is true and observable. The point I would make is that most catholics live in ignorance whether willfully so or not but pre Vat 2 most catholics weren't given the chance to be ignorant as religious norms were preached and taught at catholic schools and just as importantly through the liturgy. The Holy Mass itself was a major source of teaching but what can we expect and how can we complain that a protestant mindset has taken hold of the once religiously aware Catholic when they turned the Mass into a protestant appeasing service stripped of reverence and due respect for all things holy. And we should complain not of the abandoned Eucharistic fast that it instilled a certain laziness in the faithful as if such a problem could not have been foreseen; On the contrary, this was the actual intended result the innovators hoped far. The answer? Disassociate oneself from the new comcilliar, synodal church while you still have faith and stay away from a liturgy that is more an occasion of sin than of holiness. The new church has abandoned and ridiculed the first three of the commandments, the ones pertaining to and concerned with due reverence and fear of God. If they can't get those right then what chance is there for the other seven?
Love this. This was a blessing to read! I am a Protestant lol. I’m Lutheran. I was raised Pentecostal, ended up Presbyterian later on (I REALLY thought I had ALL the answers then lol). I like to tell Protestants that Lutherans are the Orthodox of the Evangelical world. I tell people genuinely seeking to visit devout faithful churches that are Lutheran, Catholic, and Orthodox because though we have stark disagreements we do stand out strongly in contrast to the average American Church today. Anyway…. I’ve never heard that Catholics did a midnight fast before the Mass. I love that. And of course Confession! It’s not thrust upon us like it should be, but even Lutherans do corporate and private confession and absolution. Yes. It’s still very different from Roman Catholic, but as someone who was raised evangelical most of his life I’m telling you that fact is CRAZY to the average Protestant today. I very much find myself feeling more understood and at home hanging out with a Catholic today than my old Non Denom homies.
Confession and Absolution when understood theologically (why we do it) is so deep and a rich a sacrament! It silences the devils and humbles us before our Creator while drawing us to Him! And then to go to the Eucharist having Confessed is to our forgiveness… you realize it with tangible elements.. the true body and blood! It’s so powerful and exciting! The sacraments are such a blessed gift our Lord knew we would need!
Thank you for this. Blessings!
The central point of protestantism was to reject that the Mass is a sacrifice, that the sacraments impart actual grace rather than being mere symbols, that one does not need to go to a priest for confession after mortal sins, etc. The early protestants didn't believe in personal interpretation of scripture at all. You can read the Council of Trent and see that very few of the decrees have anything to do with church authority or sola Scriptura(which is different from personal interpretation) at all. The proper understanding of Church authority must be situated within St. Thomas Aquina's teaching on law, law is not the arbitrary command of those in power but a rational plan ordered to the good. Therefore, Catholics are required(not merely allowed) to resist leaders who do harm. The very Cardinal who wrote the decree of excommunication against Martin Luther wrote a whole book on resisting the Pope! (Not the Pope he worked for, but hypothetically)
Everywhere in this piece that it refers to what Catholics used to do or should do today it could be added - but what Eastern Orthodox do today.
From an ex Catholic who came home to the True Church.
Most Christians are functionally Jewish.
I’m afraid to read this. Too close to home.
Actually I did read this. It wasn’t too bad. I had already accepted most of it. What to do about it, though, is the difficult part.